Episode 63
Independent As F*** - Ben Pedroche's love letter to a decade of indie rap
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Ben Pedroche's new book, *Independent as F****, serves as a poignant exploration of the independent hip hop scene from 1995 to 2005. In our conversation, we delve into Pedroche's personal journey through hip hop, examining the cultural influences that shaped his perspective. He articulates the significance of this era, emphasizing the creative authenticity found in independent artists as they navigated a landscape increasingly dominated by commercial interests and formulaic productions. Throughout our discussion, we uncover the intricacies of the hip hop industry during this time, while also reflecting on the lasting impact of artists who have since become pillars of the genre. Ultimately, Pedroche's insights not only celebrate the richness of independent hip hop but also challenge us to reconsider the narratives surrounding mainstream success and artistic integrity.
Mentioned in this episode:
Reissued classics from Be With Records
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Transcript
Welcome back to Want to dj, everyone.
Speaker A:This week we're with Ben Pedroche to talk about his journey through hip hop and his new book, Independent as Fuck.
Speaker A:Out now.
Speaker A:How are you doing today, Ben?
Speaker B:I'm good, thanks.
Speaker B:Great to be here.
Speaker A:Excellent, excellent.
Speaker A:So let's just get straight into it then.
Speaker A: to: Speaker A:So if you just want to kind of talk about your journey into hip hop really and where you grew up and what sort of influences were around you.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:So I grew up in the East Midlands, in Nottingham, and it's not exactly the place where hip hop is kind of a given.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously I'm wrong in the sense that Nottingham has always had a kind of a strong hip hop scene itself, especially in the 90s.
Speaker B:But, you know, kind of where I came from, it was very kind of sort of like suburban white families, you know, it wasn't really kind of the kind of place where hip hop was more was a thing that you kind of heard or saw very often.
Speaker B:But yeah, for me, my own journey into hip hop was the classic kind of school kid thing where you hear this music where it's cool because it's got swearing and all this kind of like controversial stuff.
Speaker B:And that kind of appealed to me.
Speaker B:And then very soon I.
Speaker B:I kind of realized that it wasn't just the gimmick of the explicit lyrics is the fact that I really like the music and it really resonated with me.
Speaker B:It was kind of a window into a world that was kind of like exciting and new.
Speaker B:New.
Speaker B: So this was very late: Speaker B:Probably.
Speaker B:Probably a tape.
Speaker B:And then, yeah, so I, you know, I kind of got into that.
Speaker B:And then within a few years I was kind of.
Speaker B:And moved on to sort of underground hip hop.
Speaker B:And then by then I was really immersed in the scene and started buying records.
Speaker B:And then eventually I started writing for Hip Hop Connection, which, as some listeners will know, was, you know, kind of like the big hip hop magazine for the uk.
Speaker B:Actually the longest running hip hop magazine in the world until it closed down.
Speaker B:Very respected magazine.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that kind of started my writing journey as well.
Speaker B:And yeah, for the last 30 odd years I've been basically listening to nothing but hip hop and very much immersed in a scene.
Speaker A:So how did.
Speaker A:What's that journey into writing for one of the most respected magazines in the genre?
Speaker B:Yeah, so I've always kind of had aspirations to Write, you know, kind of right from writing poetry when I was like, you know, eight or nine years old or whatever, occasionally dabbling in some rap lyrics, but they're always absolutely shockingly bad.
Speaker B:Yeah, so I know I wanted to write and basically I started writing a couple of letters to Hip Hop Connections letter section and they published a few.
Speaker B:And then I kind of sent a letter to the editor.
Speaker B:You know, this is.
Speaker B:This is how old it makes me feel.
Speaker B:We're talking.
Speaker B:We're talking about letters to the editor and, you know, asked if I could maybe write and if they said yes.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think I probably set in a couple of examples.
Speaker B:And yeah, they started letting me do stuff.
Speaker B:Andy Cowan, the longtime editor, he was the one that kind of gave me the shot.
Speaker B:And then I started writing as well for other magazines like Undercover and Sleaze Nation and things like that.
Speaker B:All magazines that don't exist anymore and then spiraled from there.
Speaker B:Then eventually, when the Internet by now was a big thing, so I was writing for a couple of websites and then I eventually started my own blog, which I still run to this day.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's been a pretty good journey, really.
Speaker A:So what sort of things were you writing about at first and how old were you?
Speaker B:I would have been.
Speaker B:I probably started writing for Hip Hop connection around about 98, 99.
Speaker B:So I would have been 17, 18 around then.
Speaker B: No, probably more like: Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:The first things I did was reviews.
Speaker B:So the Hip Hop Connection, all the good writers would.
Speaker B:The established writers would get the good ones.
Speaker B:I'd get the really shitty seeds, would use like Pitbull, Pitbull's first album, or like some really, really bad, like, I don't know, obscure Croatian hip hop EP or something that I get all the really crappy stuff.
Speaker B:But no, sometimes I've got some cool stuff as well.
Speaker B:And then as well, I used to did.
Speaker B:I did a couple of interviews, a couple of live event reviews, and then Hip Hop Connection let me do this spoof day in the life of a rapper where I'd do like a diary entry and I'd kind of like take the mickey out of like, you know, Fat Joe or whatever with like a kind of crazy day in the life of.
Speaker B:So that was pretty cool.
Speaker B:And that became like a running monthly little column.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that was pretty cool.
Speaker A:Oh, nice.
Speaker A:So when you were doing those reviews early on, then you sort of.
Speaker A:I don't know what age range you would have had at Hip Hop Connection writing, but were they kind of comfortable with and was it made clear and were you comfortable with being able to like on a release or did you have to be sort of tasteful and gentle?
Speaker B:Well, I think that the thing is with Hip Hop Connection is that it was really good because hip hop as a genre historically takes itself way too seriously.
Speaker B:There's not, there's not a lot of room for kind of joking around.
Speaker B:Kind of like it's, it's this the most self referential genre of music in the sense that, you know, it's always making reference to itself, whether that's sampling, using old lyrics, kind of doing covers, referencing old things.
Speaker B:But as I say, it takes itself very seriously and there's never really been that much space for humor.
Speaker B:Hip Hop Connection was great because it treated hip hop seriously, but it was also willing to see the funny side of hip hop because let's face it, I love hip hop in many senses.
Speaker B:It is ridiculous in some senses.
Speaker B:You know, the way that people kind of dress or the fashions, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:So Hip Hop Connection was always kind of willing to kind of look at it in a humorous way, spoof it to a certain extent, but from a place of love.
Speaker B:It wasn't taking the piss out of it.
Speaker B:It was, you know, kind of just seeing the funny side.
Speaker B:And writers were allowed to do that in a review.
Speaker B:So if I thought an album was terrible, I wasn't being nasty, it wasn't being harsh and it wasn't kind of like on something because that seems like the cool, funny thing to do.
Speaker B:It was done in a way where, okay, the music is not very good, but let's make it kind of funny and let's make it a bit kind of, you know, sort of humorous and take the piss in a, in a kind of friendly way rather than in a on, on someone's hard work way.
Speaker B:So yeah, it was a nice, it was a nice balance essentially.
Speaker A:So when you were writing then would, did that give you any sort of cachet around going to gigs and things like that or getting free CDs or were there any sort of perks that you got?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure, the concerts that I went, I reviewed, I tend to be going to them anyway.
Speaker B:So I kind of already bought a ticket.
Speaker B:And then I would kind of say to Hip Hop Connection, I'm going to this, do you want me to review it?
Speaker B:But no CDs for sure.
Speaker B:So despite me getting the often getting the not very good albums that to be fair, I did get some good ones as well.
Speaker B:And it's funny, you should Say that because I am.
Speaker B:I recently unearthed a box of promo CDs when I went to visit my parents and I kind of forgot I had them.
Speaker B:And it's promo copies of some really good albums I write about in the book, like Cage albums and Illogic albums and a few more Lewis Logic.
Speaker B:So yes, there were some perks.
Speaker B:I did get some free CDs which I've.
Speaker B:Which I've still got today in my collection.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that was.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was, that was a nice perk.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:And were you, were you just buying CDs or were you into records as well?
Speaker B:Yeah, so both basically.
Speaker B:So I, I started buying vinyl right about the time I left College.
Speaker B:So like 16, 17.
Speaker B:And so I used to buy albums on, on CD.
Speaker B:I never bought.
Speaker B:I don't think I've ever bought an album until years later on, on vinyl.
Speaker B:So I used to buy albums on, on CD and yeah, 12 inches on wax every week.
Speaker B:Every week with that failure.
Speaker A:That's a good way of doing it.
Speaker A:Never thought of that.
Speaker B:I think for me to.
Speaker B:12 inches have always been.
Speaker B:What I see was, was the, the vinyl list experience for me, you know, an album for me, I always relate to CDs, you know, I can just kind of put it on and forget about it.
Speaker A:So yeah, were you shopping locally then or were you making trips?
Speaker B:So a bit of both.
Speaker B:So albums I would tend to just get from hmv.
Speaker B:You know, this is pre Internet being a big thing.
Speaker B:So you know, you'd see an advert for this album, comes out on 2nd of September, go down to HMVM September 2nd September and buy it.
Speaker B:But vinyl?
Speaker B:Yeah, so I was living in Nottingham then still.
Speaker B:So I used to buy all my vinyl from Selectodisc, which was quite a renowned store in Nottingham.
Speaker B:Any, any crate digger worth their soul has heard of it doesn't exist anymore, it's all gone.
Speaker B:But yeah, so it was.
Speaker B:They had three branches on the same street for different type genres of music and in one of the branches, the hip hop section was upstairs.
Speaker B:And I used to go every, every Saturday of that fair with my friend, whose friend Sean, who's a really big house fan and he used to buy house records and I used to buy hip hop records and we used to go kind of, you know, just go for a McDonald's or whatever afterwards and just compare what we got.
Speaker B:But yeah, I used to do that week in, week out and then I used to come on trips to London every few months because my brother came to uni in London.
Speaker B:This is years before I moved to London and they, they were the amazing trips when I used to get to go to Mr.
Speaker B:Bungos, which was, you know, the, the seminal kind of hip hop record shop in London.
Speaker B:And in my eyes it was the best hip hop shop I've ever been to.
Speaker B:It was just incredible.
Speaker B:So those trips were really special because as I say, they were quite sporadic and when I used to go in there, it was like a full kind of experience and I used to walk away with maybe like 5 or 612 inches stuff that you probably couldn't get as easily in Nottingham.
Speaker B:Yeah, and those trips were just amazing.
Speaker B:And now again, that shop's closed down.
Speaker B:Although ironically I work about 10 seconds from where it used to be.
Speaker B: did finally move to London in: Speaker B:But there you go, basically everything I've talked about so far and it no longer exists.
Speaker B:It's really sad.
Speaker A:So, because I never went to Bongos, was there a lot of people hanging around there?
Speaker A:And if so, was it an intimidating place to go into?
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I personally found it intimidating.
Speaker B:I talk about this in the book.
Speaker B:So it was only small.
Speaker B:It was, it had a Latin music section upstairs, a world music section that I never, I never went up to once.
Speaker B:I never ventured up the stairs because I never needed to.
Speaker B:So the shop was pretty small.
Speaker B:You did used to get quite busy and you know, it's got that perfect hip hop record shop aesthetic.
Speaker B:You know, kind of graffiti tags everywhere, hype stickers everywhere, quite dark and dingy, music blasting really loud.
Speaker B:But for me, I found it intimidating because I don't know why, but I was scared to ask what songs were playing over the thing, over these speakers because I, I just felt kind of, I felt like, I mean, this is probably my, my own paranoia at the time, but I was a lot younger, but I felt like if I didn't be seen, if I wasn't seen as like an authentic hip hop fighter, knew exactly what I was talking about, they'd kind of laugh at me or something, which was stupid.
Speaker B:I'm sure that was all in my head.
Speaker B:And actually what I did know, what I was talking about, that was the funny thing.
Speaker B:But yeah, I did find it quite intimidating, especially when there was less people in there.
Speaker B:If it was really crowded, you can just kind of blend in the crowd.
Speaker B:But if it was only me and a few others, I kind of feel like they're watching me and making sure I, you know, that I was actually looking at Cool stuff.
Speaker B:But yeah, I'm sure it was just all in my head.
Speaker B:But no, I used to love that shop so much.
Speaker B:I still miss it to this day.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's something I found with your kind of shop guys and record shops.
Speaker A:Sometimes when I'm sort of low confidence, if they go, oh, yeah, this is really good.
Speaker A:This is really good.
Speaker A:This is really good.
Speaker A:I just go, yeah, okay.
Speaker A:And you just buy them and get them.
Speaker A:And I'm like, it's not though, is it, really?
Speaker A:Now that I've actually listened to it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They definitely had the quotes of certain things they were trying to sell.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker B:It's funny, I was thinking this the day, you know, I just mentioned that I felt like, like I was.
Speaker B:Would get laughed at if I wasn't kind of fully knowledgeable.
Speaker B:But now I was thinking the day that now that kind of young people in particular are buying vinyl again, it must be the other way around now where kind of most people who go into record shops are the people who don't know much.
Speaker B:You know, I imagine.
Speaker B:I imagine if you're like 19 years old, you're probably going into a record shop and looking for.
Speaker B:Probably to the.
Speaker B:To the guys behind the count.
Speaker B:It's probably the most obvious, like Led Zeppelin or David Bowie record there is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But for that person, they want to discover it.
Speaker B:So it's kind of like now you probably get more people who don't know about records than the experts going into record shops.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think this kind of comes into something that we've touched on before on the show is around how we're consuming and that we don't have our tribes in the same way that are based around music.
Speaker A:So you don't get that lead on knowledge from the people around you so much as well.
Speaker A:So people will be going in for something really isolated because it's come up on an algorithm without them kind of having the bigger picture.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's very true.
Speaker A:But I mean, that said, with algorithms, there was one point where a lot of my sort of digging, research, whatever you want to call it, discovery was just YouTube like I used to find.
Speaker A:The YouTube algorithm was actually really, really good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It just put me onto, like, more and more things, particularly around soul and again, like Latin stuff.
Speaker A:It's quite good.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's.
Speaker A:I mean, that said, they're not genres.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I mean, I go into record shops now and I'm still just like, I don't know anything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And this the other day, I know.
Speaker B:What you mean about the algorithm.
Speaker B:I think Spotify should be better at that.
Speaker B:Their algorithm doesn't seem to be that good in terms of serving me up things it thinks I like.
Speaker B:But yeah, you're right, the YouTube algorithm is.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Is scaring, Scarily accurate at times in terms of what you're looking for.
Speaker A:So, yeah, Spotify plays it safe.
Speaker A:I think it seems like it'll give you something that's a little bit removed from what you've been listening to, but then it'll give you things that are really, really like you've listened to them before or they're kind of the obvious ones in the world of what you've listened to.
Speaker B:Yes, exactly.
Speaker B:It's kind of like the most obvious next next song in.
Speaker B:In what you might be looking for, rather than a surprise, if you like.
Speaker B:So like an uncut gem sort of like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So by the time you got down to London then, was there many of the other shops still going that have since closed down, or was it kind of the barren period?
Speaker B:It was, yeah, it was the barren period.
Speaker B:So Mr.
Speaker B:Bongos had already closed by the time I moved down here, which really sucked a deal real.
Speaker B:I'm pretty sure it already gone.
Speaker B:So you were kind of left in the same situation where we are now.
Speaker B:So I work in Soho and I work, you know, like seconds away from where the record shops in Soho that have been going for years are still there.
Speaker B:So, like Reckless Records and Sister Ray and it was just them at that time as well.
Speaker B:It hasn't really changed much over the last 18 years wherever since I've been down here, apart from a couple of new ones pop up every now and again.
Speaker B:But, yeah, the timeless ones I really wished I could go to, week in, week out, they'd all gone.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I missed the boat big time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So was it just after you'd moved that you started the blog?
Speaker B:No, a few years later.
Speaker B: I moved to London in: Speaker B:So a few years later.
Speaker A:Right, and how long did that take to get trash?
Speaker A:Is it grown man rap?
Speaker B:Grown up rap?
Speaker B:Grown up.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So, I mean, yeah, it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I managed to build up quite a following for it on.
Speaker B:On Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker B:People seem to really dig it and I get really good traction with my rap history, tweaks that I do every day, which is where I kind of say, you know, today, on this day, this album was released, or this rapper was born or this rapper died.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, it comes up way too often and I'm only doing stuff that I.
Speaker B:That is related to the kind of hip hop that I like.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's.
Speaker B:I won't do.
Speaker B:Ja Rule was born on this day, but I'll do.
Speaker B:You know, Camuto died on this day.
Speaker B:You know, kind of.
Speaker B:It's only.
Speaker B:It's only music.
Speaker B:The kind of hip hop that I like myself, really.
Speaker B:But it's good because it gets a really good response and it makes it worth it when people say, oh, my God, I haven't heard the sound for years.
Speaker B:Forgot how amazing it was.
Speaker B:Just listen to it now.
Speaker B:Or, oh, my God, I've never heard this before.
Speaker B:I'm gonna go back and listen to it.
Speaker B:This sounds amazing or sometimes album that you think people have completely forgotten about or wasn't really that big in the first place.
Speaker B:And the risk the reaction on the tweets would be, oh, my God, you know, so glad to see people remember this.
Speaker B:It's an amazing album.
Speaker B:And then in terms of the actual blog itself, I mainly kind of post new music and do interviews and, yeah, you know, it's not in terms of traffic, it's not the most popular website in the world, but it's kind of a hobby for me, and I just do it for fun.
Speaker B:So I like to introduce people to new music.
Speaker B:I like to interview talent.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it's a hobby.
Speaker B:You know, it's not something I need to make money from.
Speaker B:In fact, I don't make any money if I don't monetize the content at all.
Speaker B:So it's purely just for fun.
Speaker A:I think with something like that, when you've got that sort of passion project, though, it can kind of.
Speaker A:It can kind of serve one of your needs as well.
Speaker A:You know, it can kind of keep you young because you just.
Speaker A:You're still trying to find out about new music.
Speaker A:You know, in one sense, it's for you, but in one sense it's for other people.
Speaker A:But in another sense, it's still like it's giving you that new.
Speaker A:That new knowledge and stuff.
Speaker A:I never stopped learning.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:You're 100, right.
Speaker B:Because I may kind of come across as one of those hip hop heads that's kind of stuck in a certain era.
Speaker B:And to a certain extent, I am, but I actually listen and post on the.
Speaker B:On the website, new music every week.
Speaker B:I feel like I am right on top of all the good kind of independent underground hip hop that's coming out today.
Speaker B:And I went through a big period maybe about 15 years ago where I wasn't really up on Any new stuff at all.
Speaker B:So like you say it's, it's kind of served that need for me because not only has it been a kind of journey of discovery into a con, you know, the whole next generation, a current generation, but yeah, it scratched that itch and, and like you say, it's kept me, kept me young and on the pulse and.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just, I knew this kind of outlet in terms of, you know, to mental headspace and stuff, you know, with, with a busy job and a busy life and kids and stuff, you know, you kind of.
Speaker B:You need your own hobbies basically.
Speaker B:And yeah, this is, this is something that I really, you know, I really enjoy and I really need it to kind of unwind and, and have a bit of something that's mine, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, no, I totally relate to that.
Speaker A:So at what point did you had you always thought I need to do a book at some point or like, when did that come about?
Speaker B:So I've actually written three other books randomly.
Speaker B:Nothing to do with hip hop.
Speaker B:They're about London history because that's something else that I've kind of always been interested in.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: ished my first London book in: Speaker B:And then I.
Speaker B:Over the subsequent years I published two more.
Speaker B:But whereas that was another one of my passions, Hip hop has always been my main passion, as I say, you know, I've been immersed in the culture for a long time.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's what I live and breathe.
Speaker B:But I'd never really found the right hook on which to write a hip hop book.
Speaker B:I mean, there's been some amazing hip hop books over the years, especially in the last one or two years.
Speaker B:Two or three years has been some amazing books that have come out.
Speaker B:But you need to kind of find something that hasn't been done before.
Speaker B:You know, if you do kind of like a history, it's been done to death.
Speaker B:If you write a book about Diller, you know, not only has it been done, but there's amazing books about Dilla, like, you know, Dillard Time, for example.
Speaker B:So I wanted to think about something that was kind of hadn't been done before and would be generally interesting, but also something, you know, selfishly that it's that.
Speaker B:That I have the passion for and I'm would be willing and excited about sitting down for like a year to write about, you know.
Speaker B:So, yes, I came up with the idea about, you know, what, what are my favorite areas in rap?
Speaker B: to: Speaker B:A little bit before, a little bit after.
Speaker B:So you know what, I kind of thought this, is this what I want to write a book about?
Speaker B:And then I kind of formulated it and it came together fairly fast in terms of how I was going to structure it and what I was going to cover.
Speaker B:And yeah, I went from there.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a hell of a lot of information in there about a hell of a lot of artists and labels.
Speaker A:It must have been hard to kind of cram so much into it.
Speaker A:What was the.
Speaker A:Did you have to do a lot more research or was a lot of it just things you already knew?
Speaker A:Because you talk a bit about the histories of different artists with other artists and there's kind of almost like mini family trees in it and things like that at times.
Speaker A:Did you have to do a lot of extra to get that info?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean the big ticket stuff, you know, like the history of LP or Doom or Mo's death, whatever, kind of.
Speaker B:I knew that anyway, but.
Speaker B:But you know, you know, even then you have to research it to make sure you get it right.
Speaker B:But yeah, there was a lot of research related to the kind of lesser known artists because I wanted to cover basically everything as much as possible.
Speaker B:And I wanted to shine a light on a lot of the artists that maybe made a couple of 12 inches or one album and no remembers them now.
Speaker B:So it was difficult to go back and find information on some of those.
Speaker B: bscure group From Boston from: Speaker B:So yeah, that was quite difficult and that, that required a lot of research.
Speaker B:But it's fun, right?
Speaker B:You know, it's a topic that's fun to research about and you know, you find a song, an obscure song somewhere on some dark corner of YouTube, you listen to it, you realize it's amazing.
Speaker B:So there was lot of research, but it was a lot of fun at the same time.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I've taken from it where I'm like, right, I need to listen to that, or I need to listen to that again, because you're talking about albums.
Speaker A:Because I, I kind of started getting into hip hop really late 90s, so I've not got that knowledge from when a lot of this stuff came out.
Speaker A:I wasn't, I wasn't hot on new releases.
Speaker A:I wasn't getting hip hop connection, any of that.
Speaker A:I just, it was a very slow journey for me.
Speaker A:And then I quite quickly got as interested in samples as hip hop.
Speaker A:So I've not, not got all that.
Speaker B:But there's.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's so many artists in there that I just, I know nothing about.
Speaker A:I might have heard the name once at most.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And like we were talking about earlier on kind of listen to new music.
Speaker B:It's like a journey of discovery.
Speaker B:The research was a journey of rediscovery because I listened to some stuff that I haven't heard from, you know, I haven't heard for years and kind of forgot how good it was.
Speaker B:But also new stuff as well.
Speaker B:By no means had I already listened to everything I wrote about in the book.
Speaker B:You know, like I say, some of the more obscure artists or someone like hieroglyphics.
Speaker B:So hieroglyphics is such.
Speaker B:When you put all the kind of the, the group albums and all the individual souls of mischief and all the individual discographies together, it's a huge amount of material.
Speaker B:So like there was maybe like, you know, the second Pep Love album that like I'd never actually heard, you know, that was example, you know, so it was a kind of.
Speaker B:I was discovering things that I never heard even at the time before.
Speaker B:So it was, it was a real, real kind of journey of discovery.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Something I quite enjoyed reading about in the book was the bit on wrestling.
Speaker A:What was your.
Speaker A:Let's forget about hip hop for a bit.
Speaker A:What was your relationship with wrestling?
Speaker A:What era did you get into it?
Speaker A:Who like, really kind of struck a chord with you and.
Speaker A:And all that?
Speaker A:Because, like, I find it really interesting thinking about the similarities of hip hop and wrestling.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So wrestling as a whole, before we related to hip hop.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I was a huge, huge wrestling fan as a kid.
Speaker B:So I, I started liking it actually not long before I started liking hip hop actually.
Speaker B:It wasn't till years later that I realized the connection between the two.
Speaker B:But yeah, so I would have started it probably about 90, 90, 91.
Speaker B:So you're talking about Hulkamania, you're talking about Ultimate Warrior coming into it, Brett Hart getting really big and I loved it.
Speaker B:And the ninet, at least the first part of the nineties was the big kind of gimmick era, you know, and you had all the stupid gimmicks from do the Clown to Whatever.
Speaker B:But I was there for all of it as a kid.
Speaker B:I absolutely loved it.
Speaker B:I went to see them in the UK three times which was amazing.
Speaker B:My journey with wrestling since it's funny because I by the time I was Maybe probably about 15, 16, I'd kind of like fallen out of wrestling.
Speaker B:I wasn't, I didn't really like it anymore.
Speaker B:And as I grew up I became one them, you know, kind of cynical grown ups.
Speaker B:Well, you know, like kind of dissing grown ups who like it now, which is wrong of me, you know, because people can like what they want.
Speaker B:But I'm like, oh, you know, how can you like something as an adult that's fake.
Speaker B:Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:However, to this day, whereas I don't keep up with any modern wrestling at all.
Speaker B:Not because I've got anything against it, just because I don't.
Speaker B:I will very regularly watch old matches from, from the, the on YouTube from the time that I love.
Speaker B:And also as well there's some really good YouTube channels who, who do, you know, like top 10, whatever and they'll do like 12 minute or so videos and it is mainly from that era that I love.
Speaker B:So whereas now I don't keep into it, keep up with what's happening now in wrestling.
Speaker B:I'm still very much interested in that how kind of nostalgia looking back at the, you know, the scene that I liked and a little bit before.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's still great.
Speaker A:Yeah, I've read quite a few books about the history of wrestling and watched a lot of things about it.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I find it fascinating.
Speaker A:I mean something I was thinking about the other day is what would like.
Speaker A:Because I probably got into a similar era to you and I think for me yeah it was, it was the, the giants, the superheroes, the larger than life lunatics, everyone just like the, the the ultimate sort of levels of steroids and things like that.
Speaker A:But if you watch old like Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Shawn Michaels promos, I'm just like would wrestling have been as good without the ridiculous amount of cocaine that was in it at the time?
Speaker A:Yeah, because these, these guys are just so into like Ultimate Warrior it doesn't even say anything makes sense.
Speaker A:But you just like glued to it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think I kind of as well.
Speaker B:What fascinates me is the fact that it's going to sound really morbid but how so many of my dead.
Speaker B:I kind of like.
Speaker B:I know it's been covered on like beyond the Mat and you know, other documentaries and stuff but like there's a real dark story there.
Speaker B:Like, you know, you're not talking just a few, you're talking like a lot of them.
Speaker B:And like, you say, the abuse, the fact that Hulk Hogan now is a despicable human being, basically ultimate warrior before he died, was an awful man by all accounts, you know, racist, homophobic.
Speaker B:So it's kind of sad that, like, they're either dead or dead beats, basically.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:I don't know, I'm kind of fascinated by that sort of slight, morbid look.
Speaker B:It's kind of like ruined my childhood to some extent, but I do find it really fascinating as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the way they were living, a lot of drinking, a lot of painkillers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, the pain that they were putting themselves through.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, it's kind of untenable.
Speaker A:You look at things about, like, the British bulldog, you see interviews where he's just like.
Speaker A:I think it was that ghb.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's all that puffy and slurry and really hard to see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And you tend to think they were all old when they died, but, like, you know, even someone like Big Boss man was only like, I think some, like, 42 when he died.
Speaker B:But, like, if you would have.
Speaker B:When I watched it, it felt like he was already 42.
Speaker B: And that was in: Speaker B:So, yeah, not only did it kind of like age their bodies in terms of their muscles and stuff, but it kind of aged their faces as well, you know.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think something where you.
Speaker A:You kind of see the.
Speaker A:A bit of the parallels with hip hop is where people had to live the art.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in some ways, that's the downfall, isn't it?
Speaker A:You get these wrestlers that were athletes, but they had to be tough guys and that sort of thing.
Speaker A:And with rappers, when they're kind of rapping about street life, they stay connected to it or they become connected to it.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think if you look at sort of the cost of the lifestyle, really, by head count or body count, it's probably incomparable.
Speaker A:The amount of wrestlers lost at a young age versus rappers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, the.
Speaker B:The amount of rappers that have died young is just, like you say, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker B:And we tend to think about the big ones, you know, the biggies and the two packs and stuff.
Speaker B:But in my book, I kind of make a point of highlighting that from the underground independence rap scene, there's been so many people that have passed away, especially in the last four or Five years.
Speaker B:But yeah, you're right with the wrestling and as well and the kind of, again, I'll talk about in the book, like you mentioned, I make like a bit of an analogy between wrestling and hip hop.
Speaker B:And for me the similarities are also like in the kind of fake manufactured like beefs and that kind of stuff, you know, kind of animosities, the gimmicks, you know, you get rappers with gimmicks, you know, and yeah, there's a lot of comparisons and a lot of similarities.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Something I find fascinating is kind of looking at some of the moves that Vince McMahon made in the 80s to take his cop corporation or whatever you'd want to call it at the time, global.
Speaker A:So like when he was putting on one of the first wrestlemanias, he didn't offer cct, was it cctv, didn't offer it on cable or whatever.
Speaker A:It was within say like a 300 mile radius of the arena.
Speaker A:So if anyone was there that they had no choice but to go to the arena.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's loads of other stuff like that he's done that's been pretty smart.
Speaker A:I mean, I feel a bit awkward even saying his name considering the state of what he's done.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now this is in that Netflix documentary, wasn't it recently?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:As a businessman he was horrible, but also kind of a shrewd genius at the same time, you know.
Speaker A:So, yeah, and it's crazy the things that he would do for the business.
Speaker A:Like he'd let people do anything to him really for the business, but I think expected other people to have that and he'd do things that most sane people wouldn't do for their business.
Speaker A:But yeah, that's enough about him.
Speaker A:So just thinking about it in the book, I was just wondering, are you more into beats or lyrics?
Speaker B:That's a.
Speaker B:Wow, that's a good question.
Speaker B:I mean ultimately probably the beats more, but because that's what moves, that's what moves us, right?
Speaker B:That's what kind of makes your head nod.
Speaker B:And my kind of biggest heroes in hip hop are, I usually tend to be producers, you know, someone like DJ Premier.
Speaker B:Having said that, I've always appreciated good lyrics and good, good rapping.
Speaker B:So I'd say probably about 70 beats.
Speaker B:30 for, for rapping, maybe 60, 40.
Speaker B:But both, you know, for me it's the whole package.
Speaker B:I, I very, despite what I've just said, I very rarely listen to instrumental hip hop albums all the way through.
Speaker B:Like I have a couple of song, a couple of tracks on particular favorites, even something Like Diller, you know, even like Donuts.
Speaker B:I won't necessarily listen to it all the way through, for example.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Which kind of speaks to the idea that I probably do like the lyrics more.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say about a: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when it comes to an album kind of going overground, as it were, or a piece of, piece of hip hop, be it a song or an album, which do you think is more important to something getting that crossover success?
Speaker A:Do you think it's going to be lyrics or beats?
Speaker B:I think with someone like MF Doom, for example, I think for him it was probably more like the lyrics because people kind of understand the kind of the.
Speaker B:The imagery and the word play they conjured up for someone like Diller.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's the Beats people kind of.
Speaker B:It resonates with people on a quite a broad scale and you know, it's got the potential, or has the.
Speaker B:Has had the potential to appeal to people from many different kind of walks of life and genres.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's a bit of a mix of both, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There was some nice surprises in the book I found around certain little bits of trivia.
Speaker A:So like that no Limit was started in the Bay Area.
Speaker A:I never had any idea of that.
Speaker A:And the Beatnuts being closely linked to Tribe because around the time I was reading it, I listened to Moni Love's interview when she was talking about how important they were in the early, early sort of phase of Tribe.
Speaker A:Were there any, any bits that you found in your research that really surprised you?
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a couple of bits.
Speaker B:I mean, as you say about the Beat Nuts kind of.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I kind of always associate the Beat Nuts as being Juju and Psycho Les.
Speaker B:But like it wasn't surprised me because I already knew that they had kind of Fashion who later became Al Tariq.
Speaker B:He was a member of the original Beat Nuts.
Speaker B:But as well, kind of.
Speaker B:I didn't really kind of appreciate until I researched just how much the Vic was a producer, had how much of a role he had in the early kind of Beat Nuts and then kind of later on as well.
Speaker B:But now there are big.
Speaker B:There were a couple of surprises, things that I didn't know, like nuggets.
Speaker B:But for me the biggest, the biggest surprise was I mentioned earlier on that I kind of revisited some of the stuff that I have listened to for a while.
Speaker B:The biggest takeaway for me is I always feel and felt like I primarily I'm a kind of New York underground hip hop head.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because that's the real kind of, you know, rugged thick, boom bat, post boom bat beats.
Speaker B:And I still am.
Speaker B:That's where my heart is.
Speaker B:But I now it was a surprise to me that how much I now appreciate on a way bigger scale, west coast underground.
Speaker B:So for me, my favorites were always, you know, Dilated Peoples and Hieroglyphics and Sophia and Dafari and Jurassic 5 and people like that.
Speaker B:But the biggest surprise was going back and listening to a lot of the soul sides and then quantum projects, artists.
Speaker B:So in particular lyrics Born and Blackalicious and Latirics, which is lyrics Born and Latif.
Speaker B:And although I was aware and listened to it at the time, now I appreciate it a lot more.
Speaker B:I don't know why.
Speaker B:And it's a surprise to me because I almost think now I almost like California underground, maybe even more than New York underground.
Speaker B:So that was a big surprise.
Speaker B:Another big surprise to me as well was Def Jokes, right?
Speaker B:So because I was a big, big, big Company Flow fan and I was a big Raucous Records fan when Raucous kind of started going downhill and and LP started Def Jokes, I at first at the time thought Def Jocks was a little bit too weird for me.
Speaker B:It was a little bit too kind of sci fi, dystopian, abstract, a little bit kind of nerdy weird.
Speaker B:And I wasn't that interested at the time.
Speaker B:But now again I've gone back and like re.
Speaker B:Listened to a lot of those albums, a lot of those things.
Speaker B:People like Mr.
Speaker B:Liff and you know, Cannibalox and LPs solo albums, I kind of understand it and appreciate that so much more.
Speaker B:And now I.
Speaker B:I kind of like, you know, reevaluated my.
Speaker B:My relationship with.
Speaker B:With Death Jocks and I really love it.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So they were big surprises for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So there's a couple of things there that lead into things on my notes because, yeah, it was nice reading that Blackalicious got.
Speaker A:Got quite, quite a bit of attention in like not a weird amount, but they got like a nice amount of attention in there.
Speaker A:I think what you get with with the albums is that the production on them's aged well because there's quite a lot of that fat kind of 80s funk influence stuff in there.
Speaker A:And with that mainstream say it was like Olivia Rodriguez, I think it was, who had a big hit this year with something that was.
Speaker A:That had that sort of 80s boogie feel.
Speaker A:And certainly like the craft has a lot of that in it.
Speaker A:So I guess there's that reference because it comes into something else.
Speaker A:I was going to ask you about as well around when you listen to certain things.
Speaker A:So like, for me, I know that the sort of common opinion is that the Second and Third Tribe albums are the best, but I think people's instinctive paths is up there with them.
Speaker A:I think it's very different.
Speaker A:But I think that for me, I probably prefer it.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:It just feels like more of a.
Speaker A:That psych journey almost with the.
Speaker A:With the beats and stuff.
Speaker A:I think it.
Speaker A:And I think it's aged really well.
Speaker A:But it might be to do with.
Speaker A:That was the first Tribe album I got into when I was first discovering hip hop.
Speaker A:And because it's got so many accessible samples in there, it's got like the Beatles, Sly in the Family Stone, stuff like that, that.
Speaker A:But it is like, is there anything that you've listened back to that you think, oh yeah, it's not as good as I remembered.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's quite a bit actually.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:For me, it was mainly kind of, kind of that whole period where a lot of rappers, especially in New York, were doing kind of conspiracy theory, Illuminati type stuff.
Speaker B:And to be honest, it was quite cringey at the time.
Speaker B:I'm talking about like Immortal Technique, Non Fiction, people like that.
Speaker B:And don't get me wrong, I love Non Fiction as a group.
Speaker B:You know, they're.
Speaker B:The Future Is now is an absolute classic.
Speaker B:But yes, dated very badly.
Speaker B:I mean, it kind of sounds really cliched but really cringy as well.
Speaker B:And to be honest, it's not a surprise at all that Now Immortal Technique is someone who's.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I'm completely turned off from him because he's got some extreme like, you know, conspiracy esque opinions and he's quite homophobic and that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:So it doesn't really surprise me looking back that a lot of these guys are making that kind of music now.
Speaker B:Like Necro who's, you know, kind of Ill Bill's brother from Non Fiction.
Speaker B:He's turned into an absolute maga head and yeah, you know, so like he's completely gone and it's just like, like in retrospect you can kind of see that journey developing in some of that music.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's really dated.
Speaker B:A Pale Dark Horse and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:It's just really dated for sure.
Speaker B:But going back to your point about Blackalicious and people like that, still sounding great.
Speaker B:Now you mentioned it's accessible and you're right, like the First Tribe album is very accessible and I think because blackalicious weren't particularly like heavy or like political.
Speaker B:It was quite spiritual and it had some deep meaning, but it wasn't like overtly kind of of its time.
Speaker B:It does make it timeless, you know, whereas like I say, if you do go and listen to a non fiction record, it is of its time, but the more accessible it is, the more timeless I think it's become.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, and.
Speaker A:And just on Necro it must be, because I think.
Speaker A:I don't know if you find it, but for me I really just associate Ill Bill non fiction with Necro.
Speaker A:Yeah, it must be a bit of a.
Speaker A:Bit of a stress for them just being like, how do we get a bit of distance here?
Speaker A:Because he has really gone down like a maga.
Speaker A:Rabbit hole.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, he's literally Ill Bill's brother.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, I mean, and I know they fell out for a number of years, but I think they've actually reconciled now, which is kind of a weird moment to do it.
Speaker B:But yeah, it must be.
Speaker B:It must be, you know, something that they have to talk about.
Speaker B:And I, I include disclaimer at the start of the book where I actually mentioned that I'm not purposely not writing about certain artists because of those reasons.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't meant.
Speaker B:I don't mention who they are, but it's pretty obvious that Necro is one of them.
Speaker B:All immortal technique is another.
Speaker B:And I even say in the book, I don't really care how much great music they're made, I don't want to write about them.
Speaker B:You know, there's a couple of others as well that have been accused of doing some pretty serious sexual assault and stuff.
Speaker B:So, yeah, if I don't want to, I don't want to write about.
Speaker B:That's my choice.
Speaker B:And I don't care if people think I'm being woke or whatever you want to call me.
Speaker B:I am woke.
Speaker B:I don't care.
Speaker B:You know, so it's like.
Speaker B:Well, you know, because woke means being a nice human being basically.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's my choice.
Speaker B:And yeah, it's definitely those kind of people that I've.
Speaker B:I openly chosen not to write about.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And talking about the east versus West, I think you talk about DJ Quick in there.
Speaker A:And like I was listening to and I was reading something the other day about talking about Quick versus Dre.
Speaker A:And I think probably over here, Quick, if you.
Speaker A:If you're not a total sort of hip hop head, DJ Quick probably doesn't get the appreciation that he deserves.
Speaker A:And it got me thinking, do you Think more people in the UK identify with east coast because of the feel, because it's less.
Speaker A:I think I feel like a lot of west coast stuff is very sunshine music.
Speaker A:I'm way more listen to.
Speaker A:I'm way more likely to listen to west coast rap when it's sunny than the other 98 of the year when it's not.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:I kind of mentioned this in the book that, like, when you're talking about regional hip hop in the us when you're talking about like, you know, atmosphere from Minnesota or like Sage Francis and those guys from like, Maine and Rhode Island, a place like this where the weather isn't, you know, particularly that nice, there is a bleakness and a bit of kind of darkness that kind of like hangs over that kind of music.
Speaker B:And like you say, I wouldn't.
Speaker B:You know, we're from the uk, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, the weather's not great.
Speaker B:I mean, it's not.
Speaker B:It's not like bleak.
Speaker B:Sometimes it is, but it's not, you know, it's not like living in Norway at certain times of the year when there's no daylight, you know.
Speaker B:But yes, I do think, yes, probably we do gravitate to.
Speaker B:To the kind of east coast more because the weather in New York is quite similar here.
Speaker B:And from an aesthetic point of view, yes, you're right.
Speaker B:West coast hip hop does generally kind of evoke feelings of sunshine and kind of like, you know, palm trees and stuff.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think the one album for me that's an outlier with it in particular is Illmatic.
Speaker A:It sounds equally as good when the weather's or whether it's really good.
Speaker A:For some reason.
Speaker B:I think Tribe as well.
Speaker B:You mentioned Tribe.
Speaker B:I mean, Tribe is pretty much my favorite group and you know, any one of their albums.
Speaker B:By the way, I also agree with People's instinctive travels and I don't care what anybody says.
Speaker B:Beats, Rhymes For Life and the Love Moment were also very good albums.
Speaker B:They never made a bad album.
Speaker B:I don't care what anybody says.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, another just on the unsung heroes, as per DJ Quick, you talk about Coolio and his first album, It Takes a Thief.
Speaker A:Now, I listened back to that a while ago and it's really good.
Speaker A:And you don't.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It's quite interesting how Coolio, I think, generally doesn't get the appreciation kind of.
Speaker A:Because Gangster's paradise was so big.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, Coolio was an interesting one because, like you say, because it was so big.
Speaker B:And then when that happens, an artist often kind of becomes a parody of himself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And kind of like, you know, I think in later years Coolio was.
Speaker B:Was a parody essentially.
Speaker B:And you know, and kind of, you can't blame the artists for embracing that because they've got earn a living, right.
Speaker B:You know, and that money from Gex's paradise wouldn't have lasted forever.
Speaker B:And obviously, you know, he died way too young.
Speaker B:But now you're right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Someone like Coolio doesn't get that respect because people just think of him as having this one massive hit.
Speaker B:But he was very integral to west coast hip hop from being a member of WC in the mad circle.
Speaker B:And yeah, that first album was.
Speaker B:Was very well respected.
Speaker B:It's a great album.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:There's a few people like that, you know, that have kind of like I say they've become a bit of a cliche.
Speaker B:Like Flavor Flavor is another one, right?
Speaker B:Like Flavor Flavors now kind of become a walking parody.
Speaker B:But he, he, he is an important part of Public Enemy story, which is an important part of.
Speaker B:Of hip hop history.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Super talented musician as well, isn't he?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:He can play quite a few instruments, Donnie.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Same footage of him on the piano and it's, it's pretty impressive.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I mean, he's like a bit of an institution.
Speaker B:Hip hop institution in some ways.
Speaker B:But you know, he's.
Speaker B:He's seen as a bit of a comedy character, which is a shame.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, so another big thing in the book is the sentiment around the Shiny Suit era and the Jiggy Wrap.
Speaker A:So I'm so kind of interested in your, in your more expanded take on that.
Speaker A:There's a few things in there because you talk about it remaining to be seen just how real the cultural gap actually was between the scenes.
Speaker A:I think you're talking shiny suit and underground.
Speaker A:Is that around labels and sub labels and things like that and how controlled everything was, do you mean?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of how it remains to be seen how serious it was, that kind of of goes back to the wrestling analogy as well, actually, in the sense that like a lot of this stuff was probably kind of like to an extent, manufactured drama, you know, kind of like you got a lot of hip hop underground artists saying that, you know, we did listen to all the Puffy stuff.
Speaker B:It's just that we didn't necessarily tell anybody, you know, so.
Speaker B:And they used to frequent the same kind of clubs and stuff like that.
Speaker B:You know, these stories of like, you know, Puffy's entourage squaring off against, like, you know, the most deaths of this world and stuff.
Speaker B:But in terms of the.
Speaker B:The kind of, like, us versus then the battle between mainstream and independent hip hop, even if it was manufactured at the time, it felt very real.
Speaker B:Like, you know, you really had to pick, like, a side, you know?
Speaker B:And me, I was like.
Speaker B:I was team underground, so.
Speaker B:And a big crux of the book, which is why I call it independence, because for people that don't know, independent fuck was like as fuck was kind of like a.
Speaker B:It became a bit of a rallying cry.
Speaker B:Like in the.
Speaker B:There's a.
Speaker B:Literally a picture of company flow in the.
Speaker B:In the inlay of their album where they're, you know, sticking fingers up at the camera with the words independence on it.
Speaker B:And it kind of.
Speaker B:It really sums up that kind of mentality of we are anti mainstream.
Speaker B:We are doing something different.
Speaker B:We're doing somewhat more authentic, more more creative than what's happening in.
Speaker B:In the mainstream, which, like, as you say, was the kind of shiny suit era.
Speaker B:And for people who don't understand what that shiny suit era was, that was kind of like late 90s, the era of Puff Daddy and his artist Mace, people like that, Jay Z, to a certain extent, where hip hop in the mainstream became very, kind of formulaic and very shallow.
Speaker B:So the music wasn't kind of finely structured beats anymore.
Speaker B:It was just, let's take a sample of a Donna Summer record or whatever, Diana Ross record, just leave it wholesale, and let's literally just make very shallow lyrics about being in a club and buying crystal and, you know, paying for expensive women.
Speaker B:It was very shallow and very formulaic, and hip hop had lost that kind of edge about being kind of political or socioeconomic and having a good, positive message.
Speaker B:It became very kind of shallow.
Speaker B:And I keep using that word, but that's the best way to describe it.
Speaker B:Whereas people on the underground were kind of doing stuff that was more.
Speaker B:More meaningful, more purposeful, more skillful, and it became kind of like, you know, two different lanes, and the artists tend to stick to those lanes, and fans kind of stopped those lanes.
Speaker B:But, yes, what I meant to the early point was that in retrospect, how much of that was actually real?
Speaker B:How much of it was it kind of just, you know, kind of a marketing hook?
Speaker B:But it certainly felt time.
Speaker B:It certainly felt real at the time, anyway.
Speaker A:Yeah, because it was.
Speaker A:It was again, kind of.
Speaker A:I was still early on finding out about hip hop, but at the time, I was kind of quite somewhat against the shiny suit stuff.
Speaker A:But going back, if I see anything now from that era that's a banger, I'll buy it.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there was great music at the time.
Speaker B:You know, Biggie Smalls comes from Puff Daddy.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, Craig Mack come from Puff Daddy.
Speaker B:And you know, Jay Z was making half decent stuff still, you know, round about that time.
Speaker B:So it's not to be completely dismissive of all that kind of music.
Speaker B:Anything that was commercial, it's just that kind of strain was just kind of very way too formulaic.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But it served its purpose.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:It made hip hop a lot of money.
Speaker B:And that was the kind of journey towards this phrase that people keep saying that hip hop is the most popular, you know, genre in the world.
Speaker B:So it had its purpose.
Speaker B:It's just wasn't the very.
Speaker B:It wasn't the most meaningful music you can think of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just going back to the underground, then back to our safe space.
Speaker A:When I was reading about Diller and Doom, I've been thinking quite a bit about Doom recently.
Speaker A:Well, about both of them in the comparison of their legacies.
Speaker A:And you know, you mentioned sort of Dan Charnis book.
Speaker A:And I think like with Diller, it's interesting how his approach to beat making and stuff has been academicized so much that you get loads of like Temu knockoffs of Diller because people know.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I can just.
Speaker A:I can just do my quantizing my own PC.
Speaker A:I can shift everything 164th.
Speaker A:I can get this soul song filter out the mid.
Speaker A:Chop it in this.
Speaker A:I can chop it badly deliberately.
Speaker A:And you get all these beats, I think, where they kind of miss the essence and the perfectionism that he had.
Speaker A:Whereas with Doom, I just don't really think anyone's trying to do Doom beats because they're just.
Speaker A:They're just so different.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker A:It's like nice to think about that with Doom.
Speaker A:And that's not meant in any disrespect to Diller.
Speaker A:It's kind of quite the opposite.
Speaker A:You know, the amount that people love it and just want to kind of replicate it.
Speaker A:But I just think it's cool with Doom how no one's really trying to be in his space.
Speaker B:You mean as a producer or as a rapper?
Speaker B:Both.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't think most people are capable of reaching his space.
Speaker B:You know, that kind of level of writing is.
Speaker B:Is just kind of phenomenon.
Speaker B:It's kind of completely unique.
Speaker B:It's completely stream of conscious.
Speaker B:But it's not a stream of consciousness.
Speaker B:That is nonsense.
Speaker B:It kind of makes sense.
Speaker B:And it was very well structured and very like you say with someone like Doom.
Speaker B:You kind of think that Doom was like a bit of a mess as a person.
Speaker B:You know, like he liked to drink a lot.
Speaker B:You know, people said he was a bit like a slob and stuff.
Speaker B:But like his music, you might think it's.
Speaker B:It's kind of like free flowing, but it's very, very structured.
Speaker B:Like, you know, the way he structured his rhymes was.
Speaker B:Was very, very precise and very well thought out.
Speaker B:Yeah, like you say someone like Diller kind of, he.
Speaker B:He's perfected imperfection.
Speaker B:Right Is a good way of saying it.
Speaker B:And, and, and yeah, like you say now people are trying to do the same thing, but you've got to have that knowledge.
Speaker B:Diller knew he was breaking conventions, but knew how to present it in a way that was still kind of conventional.
Speaker B:You can't just completely go and try and be Dilla by breaking all the rules and making everything out of time.
Speaker B:Doesn't work like that, you know, you have to, you can.
Speaker B:Dylan could be out of still amazing and perfect as well.
Speaker B:So you've got to have that skill and you've got to have that knowledge and that natural musicality as well, which a lot of people don't have.
Speaker B:That's a very rare skill to have natural, natural musicality.
Speaker A:And I guess the difference you've got is really probably any like most rappers who can rap could rap over a Diller beat and make it work maybe with some of the Doom beats because they're so out there.
Speaker A:There's maybe only Doom that could have wrapped over a lot of it.
Speaker A:So kind of brought it into the hip hop lexicon, I guess.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker B:Although the flip side of that is that one of the reasons why Operation Doomsday was such a good album is because the production was very basic.
Speaker B:It was like, you know, literally made in Bobbito's apartment, just looping stuff.
Speaker B:And that was more about the lyrics.
Speaker B:Like you say, kind of dooms.
Speaker B:I think Doom's kind of like reputation as a producer came a bit later.
Speaker B:Whereas first he was all about how amazing the delivery and flow is on those records.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then I think just to bring it full circle with the book, then just my final real sort of observation was, as I say, there's a lot of music in there that I don't know and haven't listened to.
Speaker A:But the albums and the artists and the labels that are referenced in there that I do know, I do very much agree with what's written there.
Speaker A:And so it's really nice to have that.
Speaker A:And it kind of gives me the impetus to check out a lot more of what I've not listened to.
Speaker A:So I've been kind of picking away at things in between whilst I've been reading it.
Speaker A:And also because you talk about whether you're stuck in a certain era or not, I think the fact that you've got the.
Speaker A:The legacy section at the end with a lot of the more modern producers and what they've taken from that era, that's really nice to have as well.
Speaker A:So I think it's nice for anyone who is.
Speaker A: to: Speaker A:It just gives them kind of a new horizon if you like to look at a load of new music.
Speaker A:So that's really nice.
Speaker B:Yeah, I wanted to be kind of quite specific there in the.
Speaker B:In the legacy bit because there's obvious comparisons to what's going on now to that era.
Speaker B:So it's like, you know, Backwood Studios is.
Speaker B:Is an obvious one with what kind of Billy woods and Elucid and all those artists are doing.
Speaker B:That's very much in kind of that vein.
Speaker B:It's not kind of like hard beat type underground hip hop, but it's very much in that kind of lane.
Speaker B:Then as well, you got someone like Griselda, which is kind of weird because they kind of straddle sort of commercial stuff, but they are kind of.
Speaker B:But Westside Gun in particular is born from that place of like that kind of Boom Bap era.
Speaker B:But yeah, I also wanted to kind of make clear the connection with the underground scene to people.
Speaker B:Artists today that people don't necessarily make a connection with.
Speaker B:And you know, I kind of talk about Kendrick Lamar and black hippie and I talk about Odd Future and Tyler the creator and people like those because there's definitely a through line from.
Speaker B:From that to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To them.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I just kind of wanted to make that connection and like you say, bring it full circle to.
Speaker B:To the modern era and just to make it clear that, that, that.
Speaker B:That was an area that has had a huge influence, whether people realize it or not.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Ben, where can people find the book?
Speaker B:So they can find it anyway where you buy books.
Speaker B:So it actually helps me if you buy it direct from the publisher's website.
Speaker B:So that's Velocity Press.
Speaker B:So if you just Google that, it will come up or you can find all the links on my socials so I'm grown up.
Speaker B:Rap all one word on, on Twitter and, or X as we should call it and Instagram and I've got all the links where you can buy it there, but basically get it on Amazon or, or various bookshops.
Speaker B:Wherever you get your books from, you'll be able to find it.
Speaker B:Any shop you go into, they'll be able to order it for you.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And you're doing the circuit, aren't you?
Speaker A:Doing Q A sessions and book launches around the country?
Speaker B:Yeah, they've been really good.
Speaker B:So I've done two so far.
Speaker B:We've got more coming up.
Speaker B:There's one in London gonna be announced soon.
Speaker B:They're really cool because it means that you kind of get to obviously get the book out there and hopefully sell it for you.
Speaker B:But it's, it's really good to get kind of a community of like minded people together and you find the people who come, they're very engaged and they're very interested in it and these kind of Q&As tend to be like a nice, you know, someone will host it and ask me questions about the book, similar to what we've done today.
Speaker B:But then you'll find at the end it kind of just like ends up being just like a chat with, with the people who have come.
Speaker B:And the conversations I've found are really, really great.
Speaker B:You know, it's kind of, it's satisfying for me because it knows that I've, it proves that kind of I've, I've hit the mark and I've done something that resonates with people.
Speaker B:But just to talk to like minded people who know about that kind of music and enjoy it on the same level as I do, it's really satisfying to have those chats.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Great stuff.
Speaker A:Well, best of luck with it all and thanks for your time.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:Great to be on.
Speaker A:Cheers, mate.
Speaker A:All the best.
